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crayzus
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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I have been desperately trying to figure out why my dps is lagging behind the other 3 locks. This may sound pretentious but its definitely not the way i am playing. It has something to do with my gear. I have been using simulationcraft, which I know we all hate but its a good tool.

This is the pre 15% agony nerf simcraft build btw, it should still be fine. The idea is to try and figure out why my dps is significantly lower than the others. I simmed using 10k iterations and patchwork fights. I made sure all the talents were the same, and kept your reforging and gemming.

Here is my affiliction dps
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lambz
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madmoos
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turt
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So when I am in raid, and I see them pulling insane numbers with little effort while I'm strugging to keep up, I think it is something I am doing wrong. If there is please tell me.

Here is a good example, last nights nazgrim

Turt
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vml1c4dn6upshco3/details/0/?s=11553&e=12171
crayzus
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vml1c4dn6upshco3/details/18/?s=11553&e=12171

we casted nearly the same amount of big damage spells yet Turts' hit harder. I asked him this awhile back and he said I need to cast chaos bolts during procs. Trust me, I was, yet he is still pumping out more damage.

Another thing that makes this confusing is that our stats are nearly identical,besides turt.
Crayzus
mastery=17,630
haste=13,855
intellect=26,178
crit=16.80%
spellpower=40,660


Lambz
mastery=17,611
haste=14,863
intellect=26,825
crit=17.21%
spellpower=40,766


Madmoos
mastery=15,015
haste=13,808
intellect=26,426
crit=16.49%
spellpower=40,908


Turturin turt is reforged for destro
mastery=20,184
haste=4,786
intellect=26,480
crit=27.99%
spellpower=41,793


There should be no reason for the huge dps disparity.

I can provide more information if people have any idea why im simming so much lower. Also if my dps being low is not a problem you can just tell me now and I will stop worrying about it and focus more on other things. Regardless there is no reason why I should not simming the same dps as at least lambz and madmoos. If you have any ideas please let me know.

Armory links

crayzus
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Crayzus/advanced

lambz
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Lambz/advanced

madmoos
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Madmoos/advanced

turturin
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Turturin/advanced
Zulabro
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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Just doing a quick look at your spell details:

Chaos Bolt:

You:
Avg Hit: 986639.1

Turt:
Avg Hit: 1243546.5


Immolate Casts:

You: 27

Turt: 41


Conflagrate:

You: 50

Turt: 53


Looks like hes casting Immolate more than you and his Chaos bolt is hitting WAYYYY harder than yours. I don't know much about warlocks, but could it be RNGG?


Also, if Turt was reforged for Destro and you weren't...that would do it would it not? I would say reforge to Destro then compare yourself. You can't really compare yourself to another Warlock until your stats are almost identical.
crayzus
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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Zulabro wrote:
Just doing a quick look at your spell details:

Chaos Bolt:

You:
Avg Hit: 986639.1

Turt:
Avg Hit: 1243546.5


Immolate Casts:

You: 27

Turt: 41


Conflagrate:

You: 50

Turt: 53


Looks like hes casting Immolate more than you and his Chaos bolt is hitting WAYYYY harder than yours. I don't know much about warlocks, but could it be RNGG?


Also, if Turt was reforged for Destro and you weren't...that would do it would it not? I would say reforge to Destro then compare yourself. You can't really compare yourself to another Warlock until your stats are almost identical.


The thing about destro is that the stat weights are nearly identical, and mastery pulls ahead slightly on multi target fights like nazgrim. I actually did sim myself with crit as a priority and my dps actually lowered slightly so I didn't think it was worth trying in raid. Turt did cast more immolates and did about 10 mil more damage with it than me by the end of the fight, but what I was concerned about was why our nearly identical amount of spells casted have such a huge difference in damage.

I was just going to chalk it up to him getting better procs or something, turt will have to tell me.
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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Well, 50 Chaos bolts that are hitting for 300k more than you would amount to a shitton of damage ~15M


Unleashes a blast of chaos, causing [2488 ( + 258.75% of Spell power) * (1.24)] Shadow damage.

Chaos Bolt always critically strikes. In addition, the damage is increased by your critical strike chance.


I'd say that'd be your missing dips
Drelin
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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From my non-DPS POV...

1) Simcraft is a useful tool

2) Simcraft should not be the end-all-be-all of how you gem/reforge

3) It is good play with things yourself... you never know what might pop up

4) Fight mechanics will dictate DPS in an in-game setting more than the ideal numbers from Simcraft
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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Yooo i am about to go to work so i will not have time to dig into this deeper. Al i have noticed though is that your dps seems to be inconsistent.

Armory shows my new reforge but i pretty much change it for all progression fights (and that is for H Thok).

Single target i aim for haste | mastery. Multi target fight i go with master | haste.

I am really terrible at destro reason why i dont play that much.

I think i am sitting on next 2 fights because i dont need loot; unless i am needed. I will take a look at this week's dps. If we are both sitting, we an chat on mumble, it is faster than writing.

I think you need to figure out why you are inconsistent though. I think it's your main issue here. On the same fight you can do good while on certain pulls you do really bad. And that is what i noticed during progression.

PS : i also stopped using simcraft to check dps ever since mop went out. It is terrible in all possible ways. I only use it

To try new play styles combined with lots of dummy test.
Check stat weigths for my loot rank spreadsheet.


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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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simcraft is full of bugs
Lambz
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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All it is for affliction dps is usually a good set of procs. BBoy and Wush procing at the sametime happens more than a UVLS trinket proc at the start of a fight during 5.3.

I will let Turt talk about destro, I know he prefers a very low haste value and goes for mastery and int.
Turturin
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re: Warlock help, i cant wrap my head around this

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crayzus wrote:
Zulabro wrote:
Just doing a quick look at your spell details:

Chaos Bolt:

You:
Avg Hit: 986639.1

Turt:
Avg Hit: 1243546.5


Immolate Casts:

You: 27

Turt: 41


Conflagrate:

You: 50

Turt: 53


Looks like hes casting Immolate more than you and his Chaos bolt is hitting WAYYYY harder than yours. I don't know much about warlocks, but could it be RNGG?


Also, if Turt was reforged for Destro and you weren't...that would do it would it not? I would say reforge to Destro then compare yourself. You can't really compare yourself to another Warlock until your stats are almost identical.


The thing about destro is that the stat weights are nearly identical, and mastery pulls ahead slightly on multi target fights like nazgrim. I actually did sim myself with crit as a priority and my dps actually lowered slightly so I didn't think it was worth trying in raid. Turt did cast more immolates and did about 10 mil more damage with it than me by the end of the fight, but what I was concerned about was why our nearly identical amount of spells casted have such a huge difference in damage.

I was just going to chalk it up to him getting better procs or something, turt will have to tell me.


OK, #1 thing I want to say is overall your dps is fine. Personally this morning I looked at shadowfury logs on Nazgrim first and foremost (and you improved there big time, grats)

All that said I will try to answer your queston about dps:
Don't take this the wrong way, but your #1 problem is that you rely on simcraft, when empirical evidence says otherwise.

I had 49 CB + 48 SB = 97 embers I spent.

I had 70 incinerate hits + 45 crits = 160 emberbits + 15% extra chance * (115 incinerate casts) = 177 emberbits

Immolate crits = 92 emberbits

conflag 38 hits + 15 crits = 68 emberbits + 15% extra chance * 53 casts = 74 emberbits

Rain of Fire 79 damage events *25% = 20 emberbits

Fel flame 2 hits +2 crits = 6 emberbits

I generated 177 + 92 + 74 +20 +6 = 369 emberbits with spells.

I spent 970 emberbits. 970 - 369 - 10 (what i started with) = 591 emberbits that came from shadow burn. (the math is slightly off due to variance around the 15% bonus chance on incinerate and conflag and the 25% chance on RoF.

But TLDR, i generated from 28 - 30 full embers off shadowburn. It was nearly half my ember generation for the fight.

Now why did I go through all that?
Essentially, As destro, your damage comes from ember consuming spells. Two out of your 3 stats increase those, Mastery (by a lot) and crit (by a little).

Haste does not increase the damage output of my ember consumers. While it allows me to cast more fillers to generate more embers, this is devalued in a real fight where a tremendous amount of my ember generation comes from Shadowburn (see above). I have to cast 13-14 incinerates (including expected crit) to get the same amount of embers (2) i get off of one well-timed shadowburn.

IN REAL FIGHTS HASTE IS DEVALUED WELL BEYOND WHAT SIMCRAFT SUGGESTS.

Mastery is king, every part of your damage scales from it. Crit works with that scaling on both CB and Shadowburn. It's not hugely efficient but it's way better than haste right now. Crit gets a little better with PBI, which you don't have yet.

When Haste was good for the spec it was for one reason = Rain of Fire. With rain of fire nerfed haste is crap. Always.

Your issue #2 is you are using breath of the hydra, a horribly crappy trinket for destro right now both because it has haste + it's proc is small-ish and it's proc window is short. There's not much you can do about that except hope for PBI drops (and you should run flex every week for one, it would be a big upgrade for you).


As far as affliction goes, I don't know exactly what you think the issue is. you've linked a simcraft but honestly i think it's even crappier for affliction than it is for destro.

I do agree with Madmoos that it seems to me (just perception, not hard fact), that your dps is more inconsistent from pull to pull as affliction than I'd expect. Sure, trinket procs matter to some degree, but not so much that you create more than a 15ish % variance, and even that is generous. On the pull especially make sure you are doing things the same way each time. Your trinkets should pretty much always proc at the same tiem. I've personally taken to delaying dark soul and beserking a few seconds so as to ensure beserking is still up when i hit the BBoY 10 stack.

Dark soul usage matters more for affliction, effective use of haunt can be a big differentiator, knowing how to evaluate current dot strength vs time remaining in deciding when to refresh is a big factor. Obviously the less time you have left on a dot the smaller the recast delta needs to be to recast it, but reacting to the changing values on a consistent and correct basis during fights can be challenging. I wish I could say I always made the correct decisions (definitely I don't). I don't have anything more concrete for you on affliction. I could try to break down a specific log if there's one you want to link that you're interested in and can't figure out.

Edit: Here's 2 of the best destro warlocks in the world and their stats (in case you still doubt any of the above)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Brusalk/advanced - 19.3k mastery, 11.5 k hast + crit combined.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Z%c3%bbmzum/simple - 550 ilvl, 17.6 k mastery 11k crit + haste

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Crayzus/advanced - You. 17.6k mastery, 16.7k haste+ crit.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/kilrogg/Turturin/advanced - me, 20.2k mastery, 14.2k haste + crit
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