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Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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First off, these are my opinions. I think I have a strong basis for my argument(s), but I'm not telling anyone else what to do. I also reserve the right to be wrong and change my mind as we go further into progression (and there's a good chance I do).

Gearing:
Affliction: Hit cap > Haste 13737 > Mastery > Haste > Crit

Demo: hit cap > haste 8100 > Mastery > haste > crit (UVLS),
hit cap > crit >mastery > haste (no UVLS)

Personally think the second setup will be better in the long run, but it may suck a lot until you have enough crit gear which could take a while (something like 13-14k is a rough guess). You can't totally disregard mastery either (i wouldn't drop below 11-12k). Demos 4pc is also pretty good which lends itself more to a crit build due to itemization.

Destro: Hit Cap > Mastery > Crit > Haste.

I'll probably gear towards affliction and reforge for destro as needed. basically as long as the piece has mastery on it I'm going to be ok. I haven't decided on 4 pc for destro yet. If i have no issue with embers in the fights I play destro in first week then I won't go for it. Not because it's not good (it is), but the offpieces are way better for affliction which will be my main spec.

Trinkets: Purified Bindings of Immerseus. 2nd trinket is either The Heroic Multistrike trinket or the normal Garrosh Trinket (by the time Heroic Garrosh available progress is over by definition). Good arguments both ways for affliction and Demo, destro wants the multistrike for all purpose, but probably wants the cleave trinket for aoe. Haven't fully decided what I'll be doing yet, since most of progress will be as affliction for me, I may gear towards that and hope i can pick up some extra crit/mastery off pieces and a cleave trinket.

Overall Spec Choice: I think all specs are good in the right situations. The key to me is always trying to understand what the raid will need most for any given fight, (burst, sustained AoE, 2 target sustained, etc.). It is also a pain to swap specs if that swap involves actual re-speccing or re-gemming. For Heroic progression it's fine since we generally spend a fair amount of time on a boss, but our first week we need to average <1 hour per boss to clear, can't be hearthing every boss to re-gem. that said here are the specs I'll run the first week and dps talents I'll use by fight. Supremacy unless otherwise noted.

1. Immerseus - Destro, Archimonde's Darkness

Immerseus adds can be stunned and slowed. Nothing will complete with a Havoc --> Chaos Bolt combination. The single target phase doesn't matter that much.

2. Fallen Protectors - Affliction, Archimonde's Darkness

Soul Swap is huge win here. Haunt for extra burst where needed

3. Norushen - TBD, most likely affliction with AD.

Changes late in PTR cycle. If we go down, warlocks best served as affliction as soul swap makes the dps challenge very easy. If we stay up, destro AoE is supreme

4. Sha of Pride - Affliction. Mannoroth's fury

Adds for Aoe Spawn Every minute. Soul Swap for manifestation adds. Drain Soul for shard refill.

5. Galakras - Destro, KJC or AD (and probably Sacrifice)

Lots of AoE, lots of Ground Effects, lots of shadowburn opportunity. Demo is also going to be very good here, though more dangerous to play.

6. Iron juggernaut, Affliction, AD

Pure single target

7. Korkron Dark Shaman - Affliction

Green glob aoe difficult as destro since RoF somewhat inneffective, demo has issues hitting all the mobs without getting melee gibbed.

Seed of corruption + soul swap for bosses should be very strong overall. I will start this way and go destro if needed.

8. General Nazgrim - Affliction, AD

Single target with soul swaps to adds that spawn

9. Malkorok - Affliction, AD

Pure Single target

10. Spoils of Pandaria - Destro, AD or KJC

Demo may have trouble generating fury here. Destro will thrive between AoE and Havoc. Take care to shadowburn mobs that die (i.e. not urns) for proper ember management.

11. Thok - Demo or Affliction, AD

Demo will have the advantage of not having to cast during roar if in meta, affliction will still be quite good. Neither will do well during execute (too much movement), do not expect to top DPS this fight.

12. Siegecrafter Blackfuse - Affliction, AD or KJC

Adds will get moved around as they get tanked. If the bomb adds that fixate are the problem and we do an AoE Strat, Destro will be best.

13. Paragons of the Klaxxi - All specs will be good. Reasons to argue for all of them. Depends what challenges our raid the most. I'll Start as affliction adjusting if necessary.

14. Garrosh Hellscream - Destro probably best for P1, for overall fight TBD, likely demo or affliction.
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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I personally think that a crit heavy demo build is the wrong way to go. If i remember correctly before uvls existed many demo locks were never stacking crit. Mastery,haste, and crit were all pretty close with mastery having the slight edge. This is what I think will happen in 5.4, I don't think we will want to stack crit, but instead mastery>=haste>crit.

Now when it comes to weather or not affliction is better throughput dps than demo, I can't be certain. So far the ptr sim packets that have been released show affliction being 20k dps ahead of demo and destro being the lowest single target. It is also my opinion that where you state that certain fights favor affliction can be argued. I think it comes down to preference and gear. I know that demo gets a nice boost with the 2 set t16 and 4 set. Only time will tell but for now I think we should stick to what we can play better. However the destro ones i agree with.

Unless there is some some of game breaking affliction bug like the soul swap bug from early ToT.
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Do you realize the new soul swap is now designed to behave as it did at the beginning of ToT in that when it gets copied it copies haste/mastery/crit values?
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Turturin wrote:
Do you realize the new soul swap is now designed to behave as it did at the beginning of ToT in that when it gets copied it copies haste/mastery/crit values?
Wait, you mean to tell me that they are putting that back in? I cant remember, did the old one extend the duration of the dots and copy the power? The new one only copies the damage but not the duration?

Well I knew they changed it but I didn't know they put the snap shot dots back in. Im gonna have to practice then, my affliction is rusty.

Also let me know when you guys are discussing stuff in mumble and I will try to be on. I have questions.
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Here is the actual patch note:
•Soul Swap no longer does any damage, and now copies damage-over-time effects instead of just moving them without needing a glyph. Copied effects now once again preserve their power and duration. Duration has been reduced to 3 seconds (down from 20 seconds).


Old:
- Did a little direct damage on inhale and exhale (~20k crits)
- copied crit rate to the new dots (becuase soul swap also reset duration under old version, this is how UVLS was abused).
- recalculated Int, haste, and mastery at time of application of the new dots
- gave copied dots FULL duration, extended any existing dots up to pandemic maximum
- removed dots from first target
- 20 seconds to apply swapped dots after "inhaling" from a target

New:
- No direct damage
- Copies crit, haste, mastery, and SP values to new dots
- copies dots at their "inhaled duration". If Target 1 has a 25 second Agony that I inhale, when i apply it 2 seconds later to target 2, Target 2's Agony will be at 25 seconds and target 1's will be at 23 seconds.
- Overwrites any dots already on the target. If target 2 from previous example had a 10 second Agony on it when I exhaled, that agony will be over-written and the new, 25 second Agony takes its place.
- Leaves dots on inhaled target.
- Only 3 seconds, to exhale after inhale. because you are waiting for the GCD after casting the inhale (~1.2 secs depending on haste) you'll really only have ~1.8 secs to exhale.

Overall they took some conveniences away from soul swap, but traded for pretty large overall buffs in return. The new version is incredibly powerful when used correctly. You will lose 1 GCD of duration every swap but also be able to copy lots of procced dots.

Also, your soul swap finger will be sore from spamming the shit out of it ;)
Amagran
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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so you guys can suck up your dots with snapshotted procs and put them out onto multiple targets?

WHAT THE FUCK THAT IS OP
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Amagran wrote:
so you guys can suck up your dots with snapshotted procs and put them out onto multiple targets?

WHAT THE FUCK THAT IS OP


Yes and Yes.
Turturin
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re: Re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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TLDR: based on 1st night of normals, haven't changed my opinion on spec choice for heroics, possible exception of immerseus. details below.

Turturin wrote:


1. Immerseus - Destro, Archimonde's Darkness

Was garbage on Normal mode, adds were dead before i could finish a Stun > havoc > chaos bolt combo. I still think it will be best on heroic. We shall see.


2. Fallen Protectors - Affliction, Archimonde's Darkness

Despite my personal poor play, still believe affliction is far and away best here.


3. Norushen - TBD, most likely affliction with AD.

Since we went for a zerg, I was affliction. Demo dominated due to guardians apparently unaffected by corruption.

On heroic, we not only clear corruption, but get do 125% dmg once it's cleared. If the same logic applies (guardians unaffected by your corruption level), then demo may be weaker than it should be.

I'll be monitoring heroic progress and our proposed strat closely before finalizing my spec choice.


4. Sha of Pride - Affliction. Mannoroth's fury

I got 0 power of the titans on the kill (fuck rng), screwed up my AoE, and still ended up pretty high on overall damage. Sticking with aff for sure.


5. Galakras - Destro, KJC or AD (and probably Sacrifice)

Destro is as good as I expected here. topped overall damage despite some range issues on a couple packs and some issues monitoring my havoc CD.


6. Iron juggernaut, Affliction, AD

Pure single target. Was right at the top with rogues, got laser beam and got knocked away twice (once due to kiting laser beam away from peeps), so lost a lot of dps time. Not changing my tune here. Demo also seems good here as expected.


7. Korkron Dark Shaman - Affliction

Affliction was usesless on the globs in normal but they went down very fast. Other than that it was as good as expected.


8. General Nazgrim - Affliction, AD

Led damage on this fight despite minimal damage to the little adds at the beginning (which really don't matter)


9. Malkorok - Affliction, AD

both affliction and demo seem good here, no reason for me to swap.

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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Last night, I stuck with Affliction with KJC except for Sha of Pride thinking that the amount of adds would make Destro viable. Affliction with AD gets one extra Dark Soul off is more powerful than I thought compared to KJC. KJC of 5.4 requires some relearning after its drastic change.

Affliction still has ramp up which reduces its ability to help with low hp adds. Also with soul swaps revamp, you cannot hold onto an inhale of the dots as long which makes the window for preping to swap shorter.

On Immerseus I soul swapped my dots but was barely able to cast a drain soul. More thinking about that encounter outside of heroic is moot.
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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#showtooltip
/cast [@mouseover, exists, harm, nodead] [] Soul Swap

helps me. And yeah i think KJC vs AD is generally no contest.
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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Thank you for the macro, I am probably going to make a weak aura that helps track my soul swap inhales. This whole Weak Aura vs Weak Aura 2.0 is annoying me.
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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So i tried destro out last night on Klaxxi....definitely could have played better (RoF uptime wasn't that good, misplayed a couple havoc opportunities), but the spec is surpisingly amazing on that fight.

I looked at effective damamge on each boss (damage during the window we were supposed to be killing it) and effective damage on the bloods and hungry koonchong. Here are the results (3 locks in raid)

Warlock Overall Raid
Hisek 1st 2nd
Iyyouk 1st 5th
Ka’roz 1st 2nd
Kaz’Tik 1st 6th
Kil’ruk 1st 4th
Korven 1st 1st
Rikkal 1st 5th
Skeer 1st 1st
Xaril 1st 5th
Bloods 2nd 5th (way too low)
Koonchong 3rd 5th (spawned complete opposite side of room, so low here too).


I plan to do even better next week, but i was easily #1 for effective overall damage.

Anyway food for thought.

p.s. the other thing i learned from looking at the data this way is that hunters are amazing on this fight.
Turturin
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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More food for thought, Garrosh Hellscream.

Here is an expression of all priority targets in p1 and 2 (Garrosh, Weapons, Wolf Riders)

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-w0qaidv3wcbh0e2x/analyze/dd/source/?x=TargetName%3D%22Garrosh+Hellscream%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Desecrated+Weapon%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Farseer+Wolf+Rider%22&s=4565&e=5211

You'll see that as destro I was #1 ranged, #4 overall behind two rogues and feral druid.


Here is an expression including the above + the mobs we kill in the intermissions, what we can safely call effective dps for the fight.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-w0qaidv3wcbh0e2x/analyze/dd/source/?x=TargetName%3D%22Garrosh+Hellscream%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Desecrated+Weapon%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Farseer+Wolf+Rider%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Embodied+Fear%22+or+TargetName%3D%22Embodied+Despair%22&s=4565&e=5211

You'll see that I'm #2 overall @226k dps with 143.1 MM , about 6.4MM (4.7%) ahead of nearest ranged.

My point as always is that destro is really effective in certain situations if played well. Pretty sure I have room to improve but it's already performing very well for me on the final 2 bosses (not to mention immerseus, and Galakras). I still expect it will be very good on spoils of pandaria heroic as well.
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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I tried destro on garrosh after not having played it consistently for like a month and all I can say is I need to work on it.
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re: Warlock gear, specs, and talents - SoO style

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I'm looking at that closer and something ain't right, I casted 34 chaos bots to turts 39 chaos bolts on priority targets. Yet his bolts did 210,68,647 more damage than mine. 5 bolts would not make up for that huge damage difference.
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